I don't know if I'm meant to click "like" on my own interview or not? But it was so much fun talking! I can't believe we went on for this long and didn't even get to the science fiction conversation! (I was just recommending "The City & the City" to someone again the other day -- such a mind-altering, great book, and one you got me to read.)
That book was also how I first got chatting to the writer Cal Flyn, author of "Islands of Abandonment" (which was shortlisted for the Wainwright Prize for nature and conservation writing - absolutely gorgeous read, with much to say about what the world looks like when we're not in it). And a while back I nerded out over it with Mark Edmonds, archaeologist and author of "Orcadia": https://www.nessofbrodgar.co.uk/orcadia-book/
And also Cal was delighted when she was interviewed about "Islands of Abandonment" for a launch event, held online, where the interviewer was Jeff VanderMeer ("Annihilation"), who sounded like just the biggest imaginable fan of her book...
I do wonder if a love of landscape and place often translates seamlessly into loving scifi and speculative fiction - and vice versa? If so, WHAT A PARTY IT WOULD BE if we could get them all in one room.
That would be a fascinating discussion! I wonder if you're right? At the time I was doing all that travel writing and thinking a lot about "place as character," I wasn't reading a lot of sci fi (I didn't realize how much better it was getting from the books I'd loved when I was young) but I was reading a lot of mystery novels and thinking about place in them -- place is a tremendous character in a lot of mystery novels. And it has to be in sci fi because you're creating an entirely new one! In VanderMeer's case, such an eerie and intriguing one ...
Thank you. You have introduced me to some refreshingly original thinking. In this world of being snowed under by the sheer weight of the internet, the “Cloud” and the never disappoints world of social media - it is a welcome event. So much of what we prattle on about is a rehash of partially digested, poorly imagined swill.
How do we recognize some sort of truth? It makes us feel as if we just were transported into the natural world of fresh air and a scent of healthy soil from some dark dank dungeon of a city.
My understanding of land ownership and the importance of walking stems from the time the State of California stole my childhood home using Eminent Domain. My old homestead became a center of the Interstate freeway system and a Bart Station.
This led to a lifetime of rediscovering the value of walking. Among other things.
She's one of a kind, that Antonia, it's a fact. :)
For me, recognising some sort of truth is about realizing it can be made of good questions instead of firm, definitive answers. And that's great, because questions are where the fun is, where the journeys of discovery are, where the "oh wow!" moments lie in wait. Those kinds of truths are well worth our time and attention, I reckon...
I really have something to chew on in the distinction between travel and place writing. How interesting that we think of the work as communicating an objective place, with the author acting as priest/medium, rather than seeing the work as a communication of the author's own experience, meditated by the place. Is the author a lens through which we see the scene, or the stained glass window that the scene illuminates? We aren't "going into Montana", but rather seeing a mind gathering and interpreting the place. And maybe it isn't the fault of the genre, then, when the author gets it wrong. We might just not like the image in the window in the first place. As the author objectifies the world, we see that they are objectifying themselves most of all.
I think it really depends on the writing and writer. And it's a topic that in the travel writing world -- at least when I was immersed in it -- never gets resolved. It's been a long time since I *was* immersed in that world and reading, but I think a lot of what drew me to it in the first place was exactly what you're talking about, one person's particular experience of a place. Which I still really enjoy.
Where I think the stumbles happen is when someone writes about a place and presents their experience as *the place itself,* if that makes sense. It's someone who is an outsider to a culture writing about that place, people, and culture and presenting their own perception as the definitive interpretation of what that life and place is.
The master of *not* doing this, to my mind, is Colin Thubron. I have never read a book of his where he didn't instead try to see himself as the people in that place saw him. My favorites are (of course!) his books about Russia, but I also loved his one about the Silk Road, and thought his 1980s book about China was probably his best, though "To a Mountain in Tibet" is probably the one that sticks with me the most, maybe because he allows himself some uncharacteristically personal moments in it.
And Pico Iyer never fails to humanize and globalize his travels, maybe because he started out as a global person himself. But he also approaches everything with such openness and compassion and humility, it's inspiring.
What a great interview! So interesting for me as a journalist! How do we find and keep in touch with original and knowledgable people? How do we avoid stereotyping places and their inhabitants? Which social media platforms are worth joining and which ones are just a distraction? These are all questions I wrestle with, and I loved to hear the insights from both of you! Thank you!
Thanks so much, Annette! (Antonia made it easy. Brimming with thoughtful ideas, she is....)
Sometimes I think finding an answer to these questions isn't what we really need, or at least, not to find a definitive one - it's actually more useful to wrestle with them properly, and bounce ideas around. I mean, I don't think social media is ever going to be "fixed" and neither will it be a total-write-off. But somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, we still need to find a way to keep doing our jobs! So the conversation is where the temporary but workable compromises are to be found - and how we actually move forward? That's my hope anyway.
I love all these questions so much. The first one, about finding and keeping in touch with original and knowledgable people, has become much more important to me over time, especially when long-term acquaintance has come out of, say, interviewing a really interesting scientist. Like I interviewed Dr. Ayanna Howard, a roboticist, for my book, and just wanted to listen to her talk about her work for ages. Weirdly, a year or two later, she ended up with my same literary agent and I ended up working as a book coach for her on her book (only on Audible, "Sex, Race, and Robots" -- I highly recommend!). It's people like that I treasure meeting because you never know where your relationship or their work will lead -- and they do really cool things in the world!
Thank you Mike for interviewing Antonia, and thank you Antonia for sharing your thoughts! I've really enjoyed reading this, and look forward to part two. I love to hear about what people enjoy reading. So many interesting ideas to think about from your conversation.
I was amidst my "learning to live with Substack Notes" experiment and SOMEHOW missed this. First of all, your interview was wonderful and it never delved into the very thing Antonia spoke of regarding Sam Harris. I happen to listen to Sam but her observation about his tendencies are SPOT-ON. If listening, I say hey google skip 90 seconds (Sam takes a while to get to a point). You did none of this, asked great questions, follow-ons as needed and we got to hear that authentic voice all of us who read her Substack have come to enjoy. A good interviewer governs the quality of the finished product. You never took over what she had to say. I'm going to read part 2 next!!!
Only just saw this for some reason, Mark, but I wholeheartedly agree! There is a major skill to interviewing, and that "never take over what the person has to say" is something that a surprising number of interviewers, even experienced ones, forget about. Mike is just a whole lot of fun to talk with and encourages people to expand on their own ideas.
I don't know if I'm meant to click "like" on my own interview or not? But it was so much fun talking! I can't believe we went on for this long and didn't even get to the science fiction conversation! (I was just recommending "The City & the City" to someone again the other day -- such a mind-altering, great book, and one you got me to read.)
That book was also how I first got chatting to the writer Cal Flyn, author of "Islands of Abandonment" (which was shortlisted for the Wainwright Prize for nature and conservation writing - absolutely gorgeous read, with much to say about what the world looks like when we're not in it). And a while back I nerded out over it with Mark Edmonds, archaeologist and author of "Orcadia": https://www.nessofbrodgar.co.uk/orcadia-book/
And also Cal was delighted when she was interviewed about "Islands of Abandonment" for a launch event, held online, where the interviewer was Jeff VanderMeer ("Annihilation"), who sounded like just the biggest imaginable fan of her book...
I do wonder if a love of landscape and place often translates seamlessly into loving scifi and speculative fiction - and vice versa? If so, WHAT A PARTY IT WOULD BE if we could get them all in one room.
That would be a fascinating discussion! I wonder if you're right? At the time I was doing all that travel writing and thinking a lot about "place as character," I wasn't reading a lot of sci fi (I didn't realize how much better it was getting from the books I'd loved when I was young) but I was reading a lot of mystery novels and thinking about place in them -- place is a tremendous character in a lot of mystery novels. And it has to be in sci fi because you're creating an entirely new one! In VanderMeer's case, such an eerie and intriguing one ...
Thank you. You have introduced me to some refreshingly original thinking. In this world of being snowed under by the sheer weight of the internet, the “Cloud” and the never disappoints world of social media - it is a welcome event. So much of what we prattle on about is a rehash of partially digested, poorly imagined swill.
How do we recognize some sort of truth? It makes us feel as if we just were transported into the natural world of fresh air and a scent of healthy soil from some dark dank dungeon of a city.
My understanding of land ownership and the importance of walking stems from the time the State of California stole my childhood home using Eminent Domain. My old homestead became a center of the Interstate freeway system and a Bart Station.
This led to a lifetime of rediscovering the value of walking. Among other things.
She's one of a kind, that Antonia, it's a fact. :)
For me, recognising some sort of truth is about realizing it can be made of good questions instead of firm, definitive answers. And that's great, because questions are where the fun is, where the journeys of discovery are, where the "oh wow!" moments lie in wait. Those kinds of truths are well worth our time and attention, I reckon...
I really have something to chew on in the distinction between travel and place writing. How interesting that we think of the work as communicating an objective place, with the author acting as priest/medium, rather than seeing the work as a communication of the author's own experience, meditated by the place. Is the author a lens through which we see the scene, or the stained glass window that the scene illuminates? We aren't "going into Montana", but rather seeing a mind gathering and interpreting the place. And maybe it isn't the fault of the genre, then, when the author gets it wrong. We might just not like the image in the window in the first place. As the author objectifies the world, we see that they are objectifying themselves most of all.
I think it really depends on the writing and writer. And it's a topic that in the travel writing world -- at least when I was immersed in it -- never gets resolved. It's been a long time since I *was* immersed in that world and reading, but I think a lot of what drew me to it in the first place was exactly what you're talking about, one person's particular experience of a place. Which I still really enjoy.
Where I think the stumbles happen is when someone writes about a place and presents their experience as *the place itself,* if that makes sense. It's someone who is an outsider to a culture writing about that place, people, and culture and presenting their own perception as the definitive interpretation of what that life and place is.
The master of *not* doing this, to my mind, is Colin Thubron. I have never read a book of his where he didn't instead try to see himself as the people in that place saw him. My favorites are (of course!) his books about Russia, but I also loved his one about the Silk Road, and thought his 1980s book about China was probably his best, though "To a Mountain in Tibet" is probably the one that sticks with me the most, maybe because he allows himself some uncharacteristically personal moments in it.
And Pico Iyer never fails to humanize and globalize his travels, maybe because he started out as a global person himself. But he also approaches everything with such openness and compassion and humility, it's inspiring.
What a great interview! So interesting for me as a journalist! How do we find and keep in touch with original and knowledgable people? How do we avoid stereotyping places and their inhabitants? Which social media platforms are worth joining and which ones are just a distraction? These are all questions I wrestle with, and I loved to hear the insights from both of you! Thank you!
Thanks so much, Annette! (Antonia made it easy. Brimming with thoughtful ideas, she is....)
Sometimes I think finding an answer to these questions isn't what we really need, or at least, not to find a definitive one - it's actually more useful to wrestle with them properly, and bounce ideas around. I mean, I don't think social media is ever going to be "fixed" and neither will it be a total-write-off. But somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, we still need to find a way to keep doing our jobs! So the conversation is where the temporary but workable compromises are to be found - and how we actually move forward? That's my hope anyway.
I love all these questions so much. The first one, about finding and keeping in touch with original and knowledgable people, has become much more important to me over time, especially when long-term acquaintance has come out of, say, interviewing a really interesting scientist. Like I interviewed Dr. Ayanna Howard, a roboticist, for my book, and just wanted to listen to her talk about her work for ages. Weirdly, a year or two later, she ended up with my same literary agent and I ended up working as a book coach for her on her book (only on Audible, "Sex, Race, and Robots" -- I highly recommend!). It's people like that I treasure meeting because you never know where your relationship or their work will lead -- and they do really cool things in the world!
Antonia, Mike - Thanks for the great responses! Lots of food for thought. Cant’ wait to read the second part of your conversation!
I love this! Great to learn more about you both.
I'm deeply boring. Go learn more about Antonia! That'll make up for it.
STOP IT, MIKE. People are here because of the lack of boring! (And because you provide so much more than a lot of the internet.)
Thank you Mike for interviewing Antonia, and thank you Antonia for sharing your thoughts! I've really enjoyed reading this, and look forward to part two. I love to hear about what people enjoy reading. So many interesting ideas to think about from your conversation.
Thank you so much, Anne. :) So glad you found our ramblings of use. I'm praying you'll feel the same way about part 2, but - no promises made. 😁
If you dive into the sci-fi talk, I'm sure I'll love it!
I just got back from visiting family in Montana, making me a different kind of tourist altogether. Lovely to read this after spending some time there.
Waving hello back at you from near Glacier Park!
Have been reading her for a while now. She's terrific!
That is the truth, that is.
I read A Walking Life earlier this year and loved it. Thanks for this interview with Antonia.
I'm so glad the book brought something to you! Happy walking :)
I loved this so much, Mike.
And Antonia! 😀
It's all Mike! He just brings out the enthusiasm in all of us :)
Like "I'm suddenly enthusiastic about ending this conversation with Mike", you mean? YES. It's a pattern. You're not the first! Don't feel bad!
You know, there's a reason people flock to this newsletter and it's not because they want to turn around and run away!
Has it finally leaked that I'm bribing people to read me? I KNEW THIS AWFUL DAY WOULD COME. *tears hair*
😂
Great interview!
Hello Mike --
I was amidst my "learning to live with Substack Notes" experiment and SOMEHOW missed this. First of all, your interview was wonderful and it never delved into the very thing Antonia spoke of regarding Sam Harris. I happen to listen to Sam but her observation about his tendencies are SPOT-ON. If listening, I say hey google skip 90 seconds (Sam takes a while to get to a point). You did none of this, asked great questions, follow-ons as needed and we got to hear that authentic voice all of us who read her Substack have come to enjoy. A good interviewer governs the quality of the finished product. You never took over what she had to say. I'm going to read part 2 next!!!
Only just saw this for some reason, Mark, but I wholeheartedly agree! There is a major skill to interviewing, and that "never take over what the person has to say" is something that a surprising number of interviewers, even experienced ones, forget about. Mike is just a whole lot of fun to talk with and encourages people to expand on their own ideas.